Hi all (I'm relatively new here),<div><br></div><div>Hmm, something tells me that this conversation might benefit from an injection of some borrowed ideas. Is it wrong to point people to a video? :) In case not, here's this:<div>
<br></div><div><a href="https://vimeo.com/36579366">https://vimeo.com/36579366</a> (Bret Victor - "Inventing on Principle", in case you may already have seen it).</div><div><br></div><div>In short, my own personal take (which I think is more-or-less aligned with Mr. Victor's, at least in ways, though probably not completely) on this topic goes something like this:</div>
<div><br></div><div>(1) Describing things textually (in "words", or at least in (possibly computer) language) has the benefit of making it possible to represent abstract concepts in concise and concrete ways, that may create a lot of complexity out of a simple (or at least simply expressed) idea.</div>
<div><br></div><div>(2) Having interactive graphical interfaces allows for exploration of *new* ideas in a way that's difficult or impossible when you have to express a complete thought in "words".</div><div>
<br></div><div>So, if you know what you want to say, you want text. If you're trying to figure out what's possible to say, you might need (or at least benefit from) something more graphical and/or more interactive.</div>
<div><br></div><div>And of course, there's no reason that both interfaces need be developed by the same person... though having a collaborative development situation could prove useful... though I've heard rumors that that's not so popular in the lisp world?</div>
<div><br></div><div>Just some thoughts...</div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div><br></div><div>- David</div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, May 27, 2012 at 9:44 AM, René Bastian <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:rbastian@free.fr" target="_blank">rbastian@free.fr</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Le Sat, 26 May 2012 15:35:05 -0700,<br>
Fernando Lopez-Lezcano <<a href="mailto:nando@ccrma.Stanford.EDU">nando@ccrma.Stanford.EDU</a>> a écrit :<br>
<div class="im">> On 05/26/2012 03:02 AM, Michael Edwards wrote:<br>
</div>[...]<br>
<div class="im">><br>
> Count me in the minority as well!<br>
<br>
</div>+1000<br>
<div class="im"><br>
><br>
> Perhaps most current users have _never_ been exposed to programming<br>
> with "text", and have only interacted with computers through a mouse<br>
> and graphical interfaces. I believe text interaction is faster but it<br>
> might be just a bias because my brain has never been "programmed"<br>
> under the visual programming paradigm.<br>
><br>
> On the other hand I think most (all?) programming and software<br>
> development in the computer world happens in the text domain.<br>
<br>
</div><french><br>
... et il ne faut pas confondre l'explication de la chose<br>
- qui peut utiliser des graphiques - avec la chose.<br>
<latin> In fine </latin> la chose doit être comprise et intériorisée<br>
pour être utilisée efficacement - et là, le texte reste la seule aide<br>
efficace<br>
</french><br>
<br>
<german><br>
... und man soll nicht die Sache mit seiner Erklärung verwechseln.<br>
Die Erklärung kann, wenn nötig, graphische Unterlagen benutzen,<br>
aber, am Ende vom Lied, muss die Sache verstanden und intus<br>
sein und dann bleibt nur der Text als effizientes Werkzeug.<br>
</german><br>
<br>
I think I am not able to translate to English.<br>
<br>
I saw incredible complex graphics of PureData, - but the resulting<br>
music was incredibly flat :)<br>
<br>
Instead of making graphic software, it would be more efficient to<br>
explain, explain, explain or translate Clisp to other langages.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
><br>
> -- Fernando<br>
><br>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
René Bastian<br>
<a href="http://www.pythoneon.org" target="_blank">www.pythoneon.org</a><br>
</font></span><div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"><br>
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